If I, as a response to perceived social evils,
Call on the “authorities” for more laws,
Have I understood the ramifications of the cross,
Or the Grace in my H.G. experience ?
I may as well call for the introduction of taliban law !
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comments
P1 : When does grace mean anarchy?
Drop all laws against abortion ?
Drop all laws against child abuse ?
No consequences for rape ?
me : when does Grace mean that ??
P1 : That's what I asked you
We would never think of getting rid of those laws that protect, but those laws are in place because of those who called for the authority's to do something to protect people. What your saying is that we shouldn't do that? In which case we would have no laws whatsoever.
me : there is a societal response ... which is different from a Kingdom response ... because not many understand that being Loved by true Grace would make sin such a downer .... whereas law ramps it up ... makes it fascinating ... and lookin around society, today, it has very limited results !
..... it is a wonderfully liberating journey ..... enjoy it ...
sung with understanding : " I am not, under law, but under ..... " - is so illuminating ..... I am free now to explore being Loved by Grace ..... law never loved me ! ..... David so desired this day .....
P1's status (later) :
I love the Law.
P2 : Is that sarcasm ?
P1 : Nope
P3 : Gods law? mans law?
P1 : Gods law of course!
P3 : thought so. We should rejoice in God's law. We should thirst after it. Demand its fulfilment in our lives. David knew and loved Gods law.. the psalms are great to see how we should feel about it
P4 : I like the hats the Law wears:
P1 : Amen P3 ! Well said indeed.
Me : sung with understanding : " I am not, under law, but under ..... " - is so illuminating ..... I am free now to explore being Loved by Grace ..... law never loved me !
P1 : The law was given in as much love as grace. The law was not the problem, sin was the problem. The sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ is directly proportionate to the holiness demanded by the law. Or to say it another way, Christ fulfilled what the law demanded. The true liberation we now explore is the freedom from sin!
Me : it was given to show us we can't be justified by the law ..... not much love, demanding holiness ..... no-one can do it except Jesus ..... now His Grace is my human response to my Daddy God .....
P4 : Romans 7 :6-13 is fun, in MSG, KJV and whatever translation you can get your hands on. Here it is in part in the Mirror translation:
but now we are fully released from any further association with a life directed by the rule of the law, we are dead to that which once held us captive, free to be slaves to the newness of spirit-spontaneity rather than age old religious rituals, imitating the mere face value of the written code. (The moment you exchange spontaneity with rules, you've lost the edge of romance).....v6
and a quote from J-dawg Crowder ( he just posted in fb land):
"The Cross was not your introduction to a God-pleasing regimen. It was your complete abolition from the law. "
"The Cross was not your introduction to a God-pleasing regimen. It was your complete abolition from the law. "
and for anyone interested in the last part of that text I quoted:
7: The law in itself is not sinful; I am not suggesting that at all. Yet in pointing sin out, the law was in a sense the catalyst for sinful actions to manifest. Had the law not said, "Thou shalt not covet" I would not have had a problem with lust.
8: But the commandment triggered sin into action, suddenly an array of sinful appetites were awakened in me. The law broke sin's dormancy.
9: Without the law I was alive, the law was introduced, sin revived and I died.
10: Instead of being my guide to life, the commandment proved to be a death sentence.
11: Sin took advantage of the law, and employed the commandment to seduce and murder me.
12:
I stress again that the law as a principle is holy and so is every individual commandment it contains; it consistently promotes that which is just and good.
13: How then could I accuse something that is that good to have killed me? I say again, it was not the law, but sin that caused my spiritual death. The purpose of the law was to expose sin as the culprit. The individual commandment ultimately serves to show the exceeding extent of sin's effect on humanity.
7: The law in itself is not sinful; I am not suggesting that at all. Yet in pointing sin out, the law was in a sense the catalyst for sinful actions to manifest. Had the law not said, "Thou shalt not covet" I would not have had a problem with lust.
8: But the commandment triggered sin into action, suddenly an array of sinful appetites were awakened in me. The law broke sin's dormancy.
9: Without the law I was alive, the law was introduced, sin revived and I died.
10: Instead of being my guide to life, the commandment proved to be a death sentence.
11: Sin took advantage of the law, and employed the commandment to seduce and murder me.
12:
I stress again that the law as a principle is holy and so is every individual commandment it contains; it consistently promotes that which is just and good.
13: How then could I accuse something that is that good to have killed me? I say again, it was not the law, but sin that caused my spiritual death. The purpose of the law was to expose sin as the culprit. The individual commandment ultimately serves to show the exceeding extent of sin's effect on humanity.
and P3 if you are demanding the fulfilment of the the law in your life: Here is some good news:
Romans 10:4 Christ is the conclusion of the law, everything the law required of man was fulfilled in him; he thus represents the righteousness of the human race, based upon faith (and not personal performance).
mmmmmmmm fulfilment tastes good :)
Romans 10:4 Christ is the conclusion of the law, everything the law required of man was fulfilled in him; he thus represents the righteousness of the human race, based upon faith (and not personal performance).
mmmmmmmm fulfilment tastes good :)
P3 : Haha.
The never ending circle of misunderstanding. P4, it is obvious we speak differently when it comes to scripture.
I agree completely with scripture in that Christ is the fulfilment of the Law. There is no question in my mind about how true this statement is.. but you are missing the point of my comments and i guess P1's.
Matthew 5:17. Do not think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
Christ showed us that we cannot meet the standards of God's righteousness as required by the Law, and therefore we cannot in any part earn righteousness - Galatians 5: 4 If you seek to be justified and declared righteous and to be given a right standing with God through the Law, you are brought to nothing and so separated (severed) from Christ. You have fallen away from grace (from God's gracious favor and unmerited blessing).
The Law was summed up by Jesus:
Matthew 22:37. Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbour as yourself.'
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
If we see the Law as above you can see how we can rejoice in the Law. It hasn't been done away with! the whole New Testament is built upon it! Love drives me to flee unrightousness! Love makes me desire to do those things which are 'right' and do not those things which are 'wrong'! Love Love Love!
Paul in Romans 13: 8 Keep out of debt and owe no man anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor [who practices loving others] has fulfilled the Law [relating to one's fellowmen, meeting all its requirements].
9The commandments, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet (have an evil desire), and any other commandment, are summed up in the single command, You shall love your neighbor as [you do] yourself.
10Love does no wrong to one's neighbor [it never hurts anybody]. Therefore love meets all the requirements and is the fulfilling of the Law.
The Holy Spirit within us is full of God's love. It wants to ooze out and spill over into the lives of those around us. Love is a verb, it is action! God's love is a verb! it pores out of us to do good deeds and these good deeds don't make us righteous but are Love.. Love is a verb.
Consider that.. Love is a verb. Love is what the Law is built upon and Love fulfils the Law.
I love that!
The Holy Spirit within us is full of God's love. It wants to ooze out and spill over into the lives of those around us. Love is a verb, it is action! God's love is a verb! it pores out of us to do good deeds and these good deeds don't make us righteous but are Love.. Love is a verb.
Consider that.. Love is a verb. Love is what the Law is built upon and Love fulfils the Law.
I love that!
P4 : Jesus is Mr Love: total satisfaction and complete fulfilment apart from verbs.
P3 : ... Jesus is Love and He was Love in action. Everything He did stemmed from Love! He is Love as a verb!
Me : the old missing the point, eh .... this started in my status where P1 thinks that Grace means chaos .... i was commenting that law has never worked for righteousness so why do we keep calling for more law as the solution to societal ills, where it has very limited results .... P3, you are mixing O.T. with N.T. - N.T. did not start until Jesus fulfilled the law with "it (law) is finished" .... you can't love the lord with all your heart etc .... Jesus was ramping it up to show that self-righteous won't do it anymore... we need Jesus to, through us .... better still, we open up our Heart so He can love us completely, then we spin off His Love to His world .... Love is not a verb ; He is a Person .... now the original thought is "How does the Kingdom of Grace look on Earth" .... any thoughts, cheers ....
P4 : so is love a being or a doing? or what about both: Christ fulfils maintains and does all good verbs singlehandedly and we get to celebrate!
if love was just a verb you could reduce it to rules:
I love my wife therefore I do:
1) the dishes
2) the cooking
3) the gardening
4) the washing
5) the cleaning
I do not do:
6) the farting
7) the dirtying
8)the annoying
9) the hurting
10) the flirting
how neat and tidy is that? sin management and behaviour modification or pleasure and enjoyment in the already fulfilled law? when was the law fulfilled: Therefore Jesus (love) met all the requirements and is the fulfilling of the Law.
I love my wife therefore I do:
1) the dishes
2) the cooking
3) the gardening
4) the washing
5) the cleaning
I do not do:
6) the farting
7) the dirtying
8)the annoying
9) the hurting
10) the flirting
how neat and tidy is that? sin management and behaviour modification or pleasure and enjoyment in the already fulfilled law? when was the law fulfilled: Therefore Jesus (love) met all the requirements and is the fulfilling of the Law.
P3 : I was not aware of any other conversations bringing about this one, so i make no comment on other conversation.
I am not mixing O.T and N.T here [Me], no one, P1 or myself have ever said that righteousness is through the Law. There is no argument there, righteousness is through Christ and that alone.
No one is saying doing good deeds brings us any closer to God whatsoever. The N.T quotes Love being the foundation of the Law over and over.
The Love of God within us does not desire to do evil, it desires to do good! therefore the Spirit rejoices in good and rejoices in righteousness!
I totally disagree that love is not a verb - it is everything, Jesus is Love, Jesus is love in action!
Jesus in the gospels does not cease from talking about Love seeding action.
I cannot stress enough that none of this is connected to righteousness. The bible says we love Him, because He first loved us. Yes, Love does encourage us to do good instead of evil. Doing good does NOT make us righteous!
Again, Love is everything about God... everything
Paul was not afraid to encourage good deeds, so why should we fear good deeds?
P4 : P3 this demanding of something that has already been done is mostly what I am responding too. Cheers
P3 : Ok, i know nothing of that conversation... :-P
P4 : no that is in this conversation:
"demand it's fulfilment in our lives"-P3
How bout we go back and enjoy The Laws hats in the video I posted. Cheers
P1 : the scripture (john 19:30) says "it is finished", the "it (law) is finished" is made up, and not what the scripture says. In fact, the OT and NT mix quite beautifully.
Gal 3:6 "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness" faith in God has always, and will always be the only way to righteousness.
P4 : if you want, keep the law: but make sure your righteousness exceeds that of the pharasisies (a new name for these religious pansies).. mine already does coz we all share the righteousness Christ gave us ALL as a gift.
P1 : And obviously i dont think that grace is chaos [Me], but wondered how your version of grace would work in society. Will be interesting to see just how much of a "King" Jesus is when he returns, with the "law" going forth from Zion and all that :) certainly nothing wrong with "working" and "doing" for God, faith without deeds is dead, deeds without faith is dead. facebook is hard to really write and explain stuff on tho, -gmail.com is my email if anyone wants it haha, how fun it would be to fellowship in person and aviod all facebook-misunderstandings
P3 : ........ Here i will rewrite what i said at the start with some clarifications:
We should rejoice in God's law (Why? because it is all about Love and knowing the Law shows us how powerful God's Love is). We should thirst after it (We should thirst to know God's law, His purity, so we can know as much as we can about God's Love). Demand its fulfilment in our lives (Yes Christ has made us righteous (our spirit's which are immortal). Our failing flesh desires perfection (presently our flesh is mortal) and God's Holy Spirit is flowing out Love which is perfection). David knew and loved Gods law.. the psalms are great to see how we should feel about it
This is in no way whatsoever a rejection of Grace and attaining righteousness by the Law.......
I'm doing an essay for uni on electronic communication problems.. haha.. these conversations are much better face2face
P4 : cheers P1 may see ya at friend's wedding.
P1 : Plus the law just meant the "teaching", all this fear of the law is only based on the negative connotations brought on by those who abused the teaching and thought legalism would work ie. the ones who got the biggest rebuke from Jesus. And P4 my wife loves it when I do dishes and don't fart too loud so I do it. And it's nice.
P4 : so you have changed my teaching of not farting into not farting too loud huh?? ha ha your a good boy P1 !
Me : Abraham was before the law ... legalism is loving the law ... what is my version of Grace? .... it is the good news of freedom from controlling religion not the good news of law .... faith and works has intrigued the best theologians .... cheers guys
P1 : Legalism is loving the law? Huh? Howz about the law of love or the law of Christ or the law of atonement. To hate the law is to reject the need for sacrifice which is to deny the necessity of the cross. The law is fulfilled that's the beauty of it all? So if it meant so much to God to send his son to die to fulfill it why do we see it as so yucky?
Me : "It is finished".... & I am done with the legal argument ... c u
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